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Обмотки, нужна информация
Goodwine: Господа, поделитесь, кто может, информацией и регламентом по обмоткам РИА. Есть мысль наладить производство, но не хотелось бы ошибаться в технологии...
ruslan : Эх хорошо что Россия большая, а то в маленькой вы б друг другу каждый день физиономии ровняли бы. (Шютка) А если серьезно то меня Михал в эту тему послал. Ну я так и не понял из чего обмотки творят современные воины-реконструкторы и как собственно их надевать (куда эти завязочки привязывать)?
Михаил Дубровин: Как завязывать - думаю, надо запостить серию вырезок из старых фотографий, на которых довольно толково показаны обмотки.
ruslan : Ну а ткань какая используется при реконструкции обмоток?
КадетЪ: Слышал (но не делал) что на ВОВ народ брал медицинские или спортивные бинты (они полотняные, но вроде тянутся, словно резиновые), красил их в подходящий цвет. Главное чтобы ткань тянулась, иначе во время похода будут складываться, как подзорная труба. Я на ГВ купил драп "Рубеж" серо-зеленого цвета и порезал на ленты, края подвернул и прошил так, что общая ширина получилась 12 см. Ходишь целый день и ничего - не сваливаются. Произвол, конечно, но на ГВ сойдет...
Федор: У меня на ГВ из темно серого сукна, ширина 9 см края не подвертывал, так что начали немного лохматится. На конце крючок, чтобы цеплять за ботинок.
ruslan : Век живи век учись - спасибо.
Paulus: На деле, есть несколько способов наматывать обмотки. Два хрестоматийных - т.н. немецкий и английский (условно). Немецкий - с крючком снизу вверх, фиксация под коленом. Английский - более сложный - сперва с середины, потом вниз, опосля еще вверх. На одном из сайтов британских реконструкторов есть подробная последовательность в фотографиях, если интересно, скину ссылку на мыло. Материал? Если ПМВ и солдат - то, естессно, сукно только. Если британец-офицер, то трикотаж (были такие у англичан, фирмы "Фокс"). Подойдет и хэбэ, но хуже. Главное, чтобы материал тянулся. Я лично сделал себе обмотки рейхсверовские обр. 1919 г., суконные, 180 мм на 12 мм, с пряжкой вместо тесемок. Вообще не сползают, никак. Бахромятся чуть, но это зависит от качества сукна. Я взял т.н. "шляпное", а не приборное (ни в коем случае не шинельное!). Вообще, должен сказать, по 15-летнему опыту, обмотки не в пример удобней и практичней сапог ( да простит меня, пехотинца, кавалерист Михаил Дубровин!).
Брат десятнк: Paulus, скинь адресок англицкого сайта на Yak-2@mail.ru
ruslan : Да и мне також надобно, чесно не вьеал, как их одевать?
Paulus: Попытаюсь.
ruslan : kozubey@ukr.net
Pavlo: Выложил здесь How to wrap puttees с сайта реконструкторов 107го полка 27й дивизии США. [url=http://oryansroughnecks.org./how4.html]how to wrap puttees[/url] О британских обмотках. Leg, anckle and footwear Статья на английском о британских обмотках ПМВ BRITISH PUTTEES – WW I Puttees For most armies of the world at the begining of the 20th century knee-length leather boots were what was in fashion for their troops. The British army however had to work to a budget since Britain's main military power was traditionally her navy. Instead of tall leather boots, the British soldier wore ankle boots and puttees. These were 9 feet long lengths of wool serge that were wrapped around the legs (from ankle to knee for infantry and the opposite way for cavalry). They had a length of cotton at their top end which was wrapped around the leg and tied off to secure them. At the outbreak of war the troops wore curved puttees that were bent in opposite directions so as to conform more easily to the soldier's left and right leg. Many manufacturers replaced these with straight cut puttees which were much quicker to produce, although they had to be worn in by the troops. Officers would often privately purchase better quality ones. The most common brand was 'Foxes.' These were better made than that issued by the Army and can be easily identified by a small brass disc at the bottom edge which marks each puttee as 'L' and 'R' respectively. The colour of puttees seems to have varied through a range of drab browns and greens. Interestingly, ankle boots and puttees were much better suited to the muddy conditions of trench warfare and by 1918 most armies had adopted them. While originals can still be found it is recommended that they not be used at events where they are likely to have a hard time. Instead buy a reproduction pair or make them yourself by buying three of the (post war) short length puttees, which are widely available, and sewing them together. Boots The standard issue boot was the B5 'ammunition' boot. It was made of thick roughside out leather with wooden pegged soles and was ankle length. On home service they were issued in black, but on active service they were issued in cheaper brown (apart from for the Royal Artillery who were apparently issued black ones throughout the war). The soldiers would have to black them up for parades. The laces were also leather. The boots were studded by the Regimental cobbler and so a variety of patterns and styles are seen. Either a pair of leather soled Navy deck boots (made up untill the 1990's) or a new reproduction pair (better but much more expensive) make a good subsitute to the originals. About officers (Fox) and soldiers puttees. 1. Were there regulations, etc on wearing and putting on. Did one start from the bottom or top and did one wind in a clockwise or anticlockwise direction The Infantry wound theirs from the ankle upwards, with the ties at the top. The Artillery and Cavalary (and others associated with horses) wound from knee to ankle. There was a fad for winding them in intricate patterns, this is often seen in photographs but was frowned upon on duty. In 14-18 there was only single variety of puttee. What is being called the long puttee. The wear of boots and puttees was sanctioned for kilted troops in France by GRO 378 27/11/14 in lieu of the shoes and gaiters. However, it was fairly common for highland units to cut down the issue puttees. This practice was done on a unit by unit basis, regardless of location. Actually in France this practice was against regulations, as was modifying the SD trousers into shorts (shorts were not an item of issue for either Service Dress or Khaki Drill), but for the most part ignored. In hot climes it was very common (almost universal) to cut the KD trousers down into shorts by official sanction. The closest thing the British government actually issued to shorts were Knickerbockers, which in theory only went to cyclists. So the cutting down of Puttees was a very haphazard thing. Note also that the wear of puttees and boots had a limited practice prior to the war for Highlanders. Oddly Kilted Highlanders undergoing Mounted Infantry Training in India were authorized boots and Puttees (but retained the kilt?) by the Indian Army Regulations Vol XI. 2. Two types Officers, well made with leather at the start, and often a little "Fox's" button, or L & R to mark each one usually lighter in colour and a none serge material. O.R.'s Woolen serge with rough feel, darker like the uniform, rarer because they were goverment property and not private purchase, A true WW1 puttee will be at least 108" long and I have a pair in my collection that are 168" long, but these are made up out of I standard pair and half of another. Fox's were a leading make especially of officer's puttees and were manufactured at their works in Taunton, Somerset. 3. The bandages are actually a pair of Puttee's the dimensions are 4.1/8 ins by 42 ins long the tape on them is 1 in. in width 57 ins in lenght they have a black label with yellow writing, marked as follows FOX WELLINGTON SOMERSET "F.I.P" PATENT 14214-1908 At the square end of them is a small round brass button that says R. FOX and L. FOX could these be the real McCoy or are they Repro. Thanks in advance for any information. Fox's made them until the 80's. The R fox and L fox are for left and right legs. If the puttees themselves are only 42 inches long, they are unlikely to be full leg puttees. It is possible that they were regular length puttees cut down for later use, or is it possible that they were possibly for use by Highlanders ?(Puttees over hose tops don't go quite so far up the leg). Fox was, and until recently, a well known supplier of high quality Puttees. The Great War issue Puttees were approved in 1901, actually a series of 6 approved manufactured styles. All were long. The usual length was approx 103" inches, but this could vary a bit, by ~4.5 inches wide. 7/8" Tape ties were woolen. During the war three additional varieties were approved as alternate--mostly cut from serge but to same dimensions. Cotton tape ties were approved in 1917. Short puttees were never procured by the War office until the 1920's. Short puttees were commonly made by cutting down the normal variety. Fox was a major supplier of private purchase puttees, which did not have to adhere to the regulation practice. The patent that Fox had was not for the Puttee but for a steaming machine that would conform a straight puttee into a puttee with curvature to fit the leg better. In 1909, when the patent was approved, Fox only made the regulation length puttee. I don't know when Fox may have made more/shortened varieties. A company called Lupton also patented a similar process, to me looks like infringement, but was approved. Attached is the Fox Patent apparutus for steaming the puttees into shape. 4. The tapes are cotton material and a second measurment of them they are 7/8 th of an inch width, there are no other marks on them only what was described in first post thanks again for all the help. to Foxs about 10 years ago and bought the last "runs" of Khaki puttee material. My wife made 97 pairs of puttees that if memory serves correct were 112 inches long ? the place was sort of semi derilect and the roof had fallen in. I was given a bag full of brass L&R tags and the black and yellow Foxs labels too. i still have many of these left. I was also given much paper work and advertising material for puttees. 1 thing i do remember is being shown 2 photographs by Mr Fox. 1 showed children pushing wheelbarrows home full of puttee material for their mothers to sew in to pairs and the other was most impressive it was a heap of puttees (mountain more like) the size and height of a pair of semi detached houses! both photos were "Great War" era. i can scan and post some of the stuff if theres any interest ? The Puttees which I used to wear before the introduction of Boots Combat High were the ones bottem left in the photograph (The light Coloured ones) we had to buy them I can't remember the cost. Немного фото трикотажных офицерских (и гражданских) обмоток фирмы "Фокс" (ВБр)
ruslan : А как одевать? Одевать то как?
Pavlo: ruslan пишет: А как одевать? Одевать то как? Вот так советуют коллеги с Запада. In a uniform replete with uncomfortable features (tight, standup collar and breeches) no feature of the uniform is more uncomfortable than puttees. It is also one of the most distinguishing features of the Doughboy uniform and when done correctly nothing looks sharper. Improperly wrapped puttees give the overall impression of sloppiness. If not done correctly they will be loose, will unwrap and fall down around the ankles. Puttees should cover the area from the ankle all the way up to the back of the knee.* 1) Start with the puttee rolled up with the tie tape to the inside of the wrap. Begin the wrap on the inside of your leg (just above the ankle bone) and wrap around the front of your leg to the outside. Complete two wraps tightly this way. шаг 1 2) After completing two wraps around the top of the shoe, bring the puttee up from the inside of the leg, across the front to the outside of the leg just below the knee. Wrap twice there and bring the puttee back down across the leg, this time from the inside of the leg below the knee to the outside of your leg at the ankle. In other words you have made an "X" across your shin.** шаг 2 шаг 3 3) Now continue to wrap the puttee upwards, overlapping each wrap by half and pulling tightly. Tight is the key. Even if they are uncomfortable to start they will stretch slightly. The final wrap should be neatly parallel to the ground and the triangular portion with the tie tape attached should be to the outside or back of the leg. (You may have to move your starting point slightly to achieve this. Trial and experience will soon show you where you need to start so that it will end in the correct spot.) шаг 4 4) Wrap the tie tape around the center of the last puttee wrap, pulling it tightly as you go. Tuck the free end back under to hold it in place. Again, experience will show you the best way to keep it held tight. Avoid knotting it. They are hell to untie, especially if they get wet. шаг 5 Always remember to wrap from the inside, across the front of your leg to the outside. That means each leg is wrapped in a different direction. NOTES ON ABOVE *You NEVER see pictures of Doughboys with their puttees extending only half way up the leg. This presents a problem for the reenactor with large calfs. The solution is an extra puttee. Find one that matches the pair you wear. Cut the extra one in half and sew each half to the bottom of the pair you use. ** Some reenactors eliminate this step without any problem. See what works for you BEFORE YOU TRY IT IN THE FIELD. Другой способ ALTERNATE METHOD Start from the bottom and wind tightly. After 3 or 4 wraps rotate the roll (in your hand) 180 degrees while in the back of the leg and do it every time you get to the back of the leg. After a few trials you should get the hang of it. What this does is stretch the outside edges of the legging more then the center and this keeps it snug. (This alternate method came from a gentleman who served in the Army in the 1920's when puttees were still worn)
ruslan : СПАСИБО!
Брат десятнк: Говорила мама: - Учи англицкий, учи, а то балбесом вырастеш
Pavlo: Если язык "плутократов" недоступен, переведу влет. Надо?
Брат десятнк: Конечно надо!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Можно на мыло Yak-2@mail.ru
Pavlo: Так а может сюда перевод? Гут, делаю.
ruslan : О это дело! Палун.
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